What to go for: 25 ACP, 22 LR or something else?

Question

As a follow up on a previous question I asked, I think I'm in the market for a super low recoil gun that my wife can shoot with an elbow injury that hasn't fully healed. It seems that my best option for her would be the .25 ACP or the .22 LR. The biggest advantage of the .25 ACP is that it is more reliable than the .22 LR, but the penetration sucks. The .22 LR has better ballistics, but there are questions about its reliability.

...or is there a third option that I'm not considering? That is, I need a super low recoil gun that is small and light (sub compact to pocket), reliable, with ballistics that aren't too bad.

Please also include models of guns that I should consider looking into.

Thanks. I love talking about guns.

Answer 1

22 reliability all depends on what you paid for the gun, if you cleaned it properly, and if it was broken in properly. I have a Walther P22 that I decided to see how many rounds could be fired before it finally jammed. After 2-3 months of shooting and no cleaning - it finally jammed on 1,886. And once cleaned - it has not jammed again since then (which was 2 years). I carry this pistol on my trap line when it is -55F in Alaska. If it can handle being stuffed in various bags with trapping gear, the cold, and come out shooting every time....... unless your wife is into serious mud wrestling or rebuilds transmission - while wearing a pistol - I doubt she is going to abuse it like I do.



Althougth the P22 is the last gun I would recommend for personal defense - it has pluses. Like being easy to carry, everyone makes nice holsters for it, no recoil, ultra reliable, no big front or rear sight to stop you from eaisly removing it from a pocket or purse. It has no sharp edges.



Back when I was a younger man beach bum - I carried a 25acp - hard to hide anything bigger when wearing cut offs and t-shirt. I found a company that made a neat holster - called a wallet holster - it fit in your right butt check pocket and looked like you had a normal wallet. If someone was intent on robbing you - it looked like you were going for your wallet to hand it over..... when in fact you were drawing.



22 and 25acp fall into that 'better than nothing' area. A much better low recoil gun - the Walther PPK/s and many of the others made by Ruger, etc in 380 auto that cost half as much as the Walther.



If she is never going to heal and/or only need this gun for a few months - that Walther P22 is your best choice - assuming she cant handle anything esle. It's a gun that you can take most anywhere outdoor and have fun later on.



If you are looking for a long term solution - the 380 auto is where you need to be looking. Most concealed carry experienced people deem this the minium cartrige to use.



I would avoid the 25acp. They have a surprisingly low resale value. Not much fun value.

Answer 2

Take the 22 LR over the 25 any day. 22's though are finicky about ammo. You just need to make sure the gun is reliable and will cycle the ammo.

BUT..........

Look at a 32 acp. Bersa made one for several years. You can still find the new in the USA. It should cost up to $300. Probably the best bang for your buck. Also Walther makes the PPK for about twice the price of the Bersa.

Then there is the Beretta Tomcat- a smaller pocket size auto with a tip-up barrel for easy loading, no need to rack the slide. This is a good girl gun. The downside- it may have some recoil.

You may consider a 32 revolver.

Answer 3

Ok let's look at the two components to firearms reliability - the ammunition and the firearm itself. Let's start with the ammunition:



Probably like many here I've shot probably over 100,000 rounds of .22LR to date across a number of platforms in both pistols and rifles. Basically, as you decrease the cost of the ammunition, you decrease the reliability of each round going bang. As you get into a better quality ammunition - say CCI Velocitor (one of my favorites, very high velocity and 40 grains) the reliability of the ammunition improves significantly. Side by side probably not quite to centerfire standards, but very close. There are others - Aguila Interceptor is the CCI Velocitor twin from foriegn soil is another I think is very good. I prefer the heavier rounds and solid noses in general. You are probably paying twice what you would for bulk ammo, but that still is only $6 per 50 or so.



Now, as an alternative - .22 WMR is much more reliable still and packs more energy than the .22LR in 40 grains, by about 50% or so. Still is very low recoil even in small platforms.



So, let's switch to platforms for a minute. If I were looking to carry as a .22LR in a semi - auto, the lowest price gun I would probably consider would be the Bersa Thunder .22LR - and only because I have now spent some time behind my dad's pistol which started out as a range gun and is proving to be something more. In general I would look at guns which are built for larger calibers and then chambered in .22LR rather than guns that are on the cheaper side. Along this same vein, the gun I would recommend. (and have spent some time behind as well) is the Beretta 87. (Not the 87T which is the target model) It's expensive - in fact, about the same cost as the Beretta 84 in .380 ... because it is the same gun, just chambered in .22LR. It is substantially more reliable than something like the P22. $800 for one only sounds like a lot of money when you are running the plastic, once you sign the receipt it's just another number. I've heard a few good things about the new Walther PPK/S in .22LR, but I've not even held one much less shot one.



The other way to mitigate is to look at a revolver. There are some excellent quality compact revolvers in both .22LR and .22WMR as well as some options that are set up as combos. In fact, most of the revolver manufacturers make some version of a centerfire revolver in .22LR. Ruger makes a version of their excellent SP101 in .22LR, I have a Smith and Wesson 317 AirWeight Kit Gun with Hi - Viz sights which is 8 shots and an excellent option. the 351PD in .22 WMR at 7 shots with Hi Viz sights is also a great revolver. The revolver also mitigates some of the reliability risk of the ammo - because if the round doesn't fire, just keep pulling the trigger - you'll get the next one.



Again, not cheap - but think of it this way - you are paying for a centerfire quality firearm and all that describes. It just happens to be chambered as a .22. However, your application is the same as if it were centerfire, it's just you can't get there from here.



I would definitely not get a 25 ACP. The choices of handguns in that caliber are very poor - probably the Taurus or Beretta Bobcat style guns are the most common, and they do not have extractors as part of their design which means they are MORE sensitive to limp wristing as a mode of failure. Given the problem your wife has at the moment, that makes her more likely to have that problem.



Thinkingblade

Answer 4

Poster above gave you great example of when to use a .22 LR for defensive purposes. Consider a shotgun which can be bought for the same price as a new Ruger 10/22. I've seen new Remington 870 pump shotguns for just over $300 new and used for $250. H

Answer 5

Skip the .25ACP

On a cost per round basis this puny round costs more than 45ACP.



A good quality 22 long rifle ( not bulk pack) will show pretty good ignition quality



Most evaluations show a plain old lead solid works pretty well on tissue even though its gonna take multiple hits to get a physical stop.



I used a P22 for a training gun long enough to wear it out.

It's been replaced with a Ruger SR 22 that I consider reliable for defense ( and if I was not able to fire major caliber s do to disability I'd carry it)



Not many good 25's exist....and those that do are very minimal guns and hard to shoot well

Answer 6

32 acp is the same price of 25 acp, but the bullet's bigger and offers a little bit more energy than 22.

25 has less power than 22 so in terms of power (and stopping power) it's at the bottom of the firearm chart.

perhaps take her to a range and try out a variety of 32's? they make 32 acp pocket guns.



22's reliability issue can be 'mitigated' with frequent practice handling the gun and clearing misfires.

high quality 22, cci mini mag, ar and blazer in particular, has the least likelihood of misfires.



small 22 could be phoenix 22. unfortunately it's a little heavy.

light 22 could be walther p22. it feels and weighs as much as a toy (airsoft) gun. but it's larger than the phoenix.

in general guns are all reliable as long as you did your homework, aware of each gun's unique 'issues' and the gun is fed ammo it likes, and is well maintained. i know Walther's picky about ammo. the phoenix has a retarded mag safety that makes operation complicated... just remove it when you get it home. without the mag safety its extremely easy to operate and pleasure to use. its got the safety only because it's made in CA and CA makes Phoenix put a bunch of stupid safeties in it. It's already a very safe gun, with a general trigger/slide lock safety and a firing pin safety. mag safety is just too much.



now i only named two 22 pistols. there's way more than that but i know very little about them. I have the Phoenix and considered the Walther (did my research). Phoenix is a solid gun, if I was to go back and buy it again I'd pick the nickeled one though. the black finish comes off over time. the phoenix has a 2 barrel package version, one 3" bbl for defense and one 5" bbl for target shooting. that gun package is about $200 and includes a case and holster and more mags.



for 32 the only few i know of is like the JA-32 which is another cheap gun like the phoenix but from NV and without too many safeties, and the Walther PPK which is the james bond gun. the PPK is well known, high quality, reliable, well made and beautiful, but it's also really expensive.

Answer 7

You do not mention her skill with a fire arm. If she's a newby or if she's shot 50,000 rounds at steel targets over years. .22 is not a effective self defense caliber, it will kill a man as dead as a .45 with proper shot placement, but how quickly said man dies is the main thing against it. A .22 in the head or heart may not stop an attacker for several very long moments giving a determined attacker time to get up on your wife and attack even if it was a fatal shot. As my CCW instructor said always shoot until the threat is stopped, as in if the first bullet goes in they keep coming you shoot again and again until they run or they stop.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5J14juvOUk - Not a huge fan of Ruger, but this is a very cool pocket revolver I do like a lot. The little LCR .22 is a 8 shot double action only revolver with no hammer to snag on anything and no recoil at all. If you want a reliable .22 that's tiny and super simple to use this is hard to beat. I believe they also make this gun in MAGNUM version, I would personally go for the Magnum if you can find one, recoil will be slightly more noticeable but still very light.



I do not like .25acp at all, I have shot around a hundred rounds of of a old Raven MP-25 and a few out of a friends old Beretta. Couldn't hit crap with it, probably me having been new to shooting back then and the guns are very small.



And .22's reliability is in the bullets and the weapons. Some .22's do not cycle with cheaper ammo and get dirty quick because .22 is a dirty round. That's one reason I love a Revolver in .22 caliber. BUT if you get CCI's in Mini Mag or Stinger or any CCI product they are about as reliable as you can get for a .22. Never carry that 550 bulk box ammo for anything but sport shooting, that's the worst for jams and duds. I have never had a CCI in .22LR or .22MAG that failed to go bang when the hammer/firing pin struck it.



If she wants a Semi auto tiny gun I have only to say do NOT get the Phoenix Arms HP-22 no matter the price. I had one as a range toy and hated it. My uncle has one I love, functions perfect but the one I bough new had issues. Ended up selling it back to the pawn shop. The tiny Taurus tip up barrels are suppose to be pretty good for reliability but accuracy sux from the pint size pistol.



( EDIT ) - I didn't even see Jack of some trades talking about the Phoenix Arms LOL. I do love my Uncles, but to expand on my issues. I bought the Phoenix Arms range kit with the long and short barrels for the HP-22. The long barrel worked fine, but the short barrel had an issue with the feed ramp. I never got more then half a magazine out of it before it would either stove pipe or fail to eject. The gun went back to Phoenix and they sent me it back with a extra magazine free and a new barrel. Well shooting the new one it was better but still jammed, but at the range the guy next to me held up some spent brass that was bulging out at the base! The round was not seating properly in the barrel and the casing was stretching out nearly bursting. After that I sold it back to the pawn shop loosing half my money. VERY accurate little plinker though, I wish mine worked as well as my uncles did because I love a hammer fired pistol.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpRM-IKl8-o

Answer 8

I carry a Kel-Tec P32. In fact, I own two of them because I was offered two of them new for $414 shipped. Hard to pass up on. I personally wouldn't recommend going to .22lr route for a carry gun. I'm assuing your wife is going to carry this gun since you did state 'small and light'. There aren't a lot of 32 pistol models. I also own the Beretta 3032. The slide is heavy to pull back, but shooting it is very pleasant and I haven't had any problems with the gun. I bought it for my wife and for me, the small beavertail just doesn't cut it with my hands.



Take a look at the Kel-Tec P32.



Oh Beretta will be releasing a pistol called the Pico and is supposed to be offering it in 32 and 380.

Answer 9

Well if you're limiting your choices to just a .22 or a .25 ACP then the .22 LR wins every time. However you might want to consider the Beretta Tomcat in .32 ACP. It has a tip up barrel so you can load the chamber without having to rack the slide.



http://www.berettausa.com/products/3032-tomcat-wide-slide/

Answer 10

Good luck finding .25 ACP on every street corner. That's not exactly a caliber that you'll easily find in my neck of the woods.

Answer 11

The .25 ACP is not an option. I would teach her to shoot a 9mm or .380 ACP with the other hand/elbow.

Answer 12

would suggest a bersa .380 while .380 in pocket pistols tend to be much more snappy than .22lr the bersa is all steel and beefy enough to make the recoil minimal......and still in the "small" size.....





also several mil-surp .32 acp but they tend to be a pain to manipulate the action on compared to a modern firearm.... like the cz 70 /50 .......

Answer 13

Do not buy a .25ACP or .22 do you want her to get raped? Buy her a .38 5 or 6 shot revolver so she can atleast have a fighting chance. S&W have some nice .38's with almost no kick, other than that check out compact 9mm from Springfield or S&W.

Answer 14

speak for yourself Mackin. i have drowned many a basking reptilian.

Answer 15

M&P Shield in 9mm